A Dogme approach to coursebooks part one: Driven by conversation 1

Now the series of posts I want to move on to next may well come as a bit of a surprise to many of you out there, given the fact that I devoted a significant amount of my early energies on this blog to exploring the myriad ways in which I feel the whole Dogme movement, such as it is, has gone slightly awry. However, as I stated many times during those early rants, one of the things that most got my goat was the notion that somehow the concepts behind Dogme necessitated an anti-coursebook stance. Now, of course, this may not be a dominant position among the majority of those who see themselves as following Dogme principles and I may simply have been reacting badly to the explicitly divisive rhetoric behind Chia Suan Chongs’ dogme versus coursebook teach-off series, but it seems to me that many of the guiding principles behind the amorphous beast that Dogme has become are actually incredibly useful ways of thinking about classroom material – and especially when it comes to designing and using coursebooks effectively. As such, what I plan to do over the coming weeks is attempt the perhaps heretical task of showing how false the dichotomy behind the teach-off is and outline the ways in which I believe Dogme and coursebooks can mutually complement each other.

To begin, I’ll explore the way in which I feel the three main precepts of Dogme can work when it comes to coursebooks. Let’s begin with  the notion of conversation-driven teaching. Below is the way the Wikipedia entry on Dogme frames the central importance of conversation to Dogme:

Conversation is seen as central to language learning within the Dogme framework, because it is the “fundamental and universal form of language” and so is considered to be “language at work”. Since real life conversation is more interactional than it is transactional, Dogme places more value on communication that promotes social interaction. Dogme also places more emphasis on a discourse-level (rather than sentence-level) approach to language, as it is considered to better prepare learners for real-life communication, where the entire conversation is more relevant than the analysis of specific utterances. Dogme considers that the learning of a skill is co-constructed within the interaction between the learner and the teacher. In this sense, teaching is a conversation between the two parties. As such, Dogme is seen to reflect Tharp’s view that “to most truly teach, one must converse; to truly converse is to teach”.

Now obviously, there are holes that are easily picked in s0me of the above. One could easily argue that there is no particular reason why conversation is any more an example of “language at work” than written discourses such as emails, Messaging, etc. There’s also a real issue about whether the co-constructed nature of conversation means it has to be mediated by student AND TEACHER. Could it not also be between student and student or student and text? And just because true teaching must involve conversing, does that automatically mean that the opposite is also true? Is all conversing automatically some kind of teaching? Surely not. Is teaching ONLY ‘a conversation between two parties’? And so on . . . and on . . . and on.

However, the goal here is NOT to nitpick (believe it or not), but to acknowledge some kind of fundamental truth in the concept of good teaching (of English as a Foreign Language, at any rate!) being conversationally rooted. You might want to claim a slightly larger slice of the spoken pie for TRANSACTIONAL / GETTING THINGS DONE type conversations than the quote above seems to allow, but surely few teachers would argue that perhaps the ultimate goal of a General English course is to develop and extend students’ ability to speak (and listen to) English. The way we usually conceptualize ability in a foreign language is very much rooted in the notion of the primacy of speech. We’ve all met – and possibly moaned about – students who perform well on paper tests, but who are unable to really function in class as they fail to keep up with the predominantly spoken nature of lessons. This is, perhaps, reflective of the fact that the classroom is first and foremost a social space and that speaking is the one skill that is hardest to practise outside of its confines. Students WANT to talk to each other and when speaking is banned or discouraged in a classroom,. it is simply driven underground, resulting in whispering, note-passing and texting!

However, just accepting that we want our classes to be driven – at least by and large – by conversation is only the starting point. Out of this pour a whole host of questions that need serious consideration: what’s the difference between conversation and talking / speaking? If we are to place conversation at the heart of our teaching, then what kind of conversations should be helping our students to have, and what should guide us in making decisions about this? And if we are to be DRIVEN by conversation, then how exactly will this driving occur? What does it imply in terms of the way we structure and conceptualise our teaching?

So, the first of these questions: is conversation different from just speaking and if so, how? Well, in ELT terms, students ‘doing some speaking’ can involve – at its most banal – the kind of monotonous structural drilling that Callan specialise in, and that nervous students from educational backgrounds that have prioritized a very limited notion of grammatical accuracy over any kind of communicative competence are often suckered into believing may help them improve fluency; you know the type of thing: Is this a pen? / No, it’s a bucket. Is this a pen? / No, it’s a mindfuck. And so on. Close cousins to such drills, though perhaps not quite as inbred and possessed of scary monobrows are the kind of essentially grammar drill oriented spoken practice activities that books like Headway and English File have spread across the known world – and possibly even beyond it. These are perhaps best epitomized by the Have you ever . . . slept in a cave? / been to Paris? / tried Thai food? / been asked a more ridiculous question? type of exercises that are predicated on the somewhat optimistic belief that if only students could master the use of individual structures one at a time then out of this conversational competence will somehow emerge. At the other end of the spectrum is that rare beast, the naturally emergent fully participational whole class conversation, where everyone suddenly gets swept along by a tide of enthusiasm and all struggle to voice the ideas in emergent English – or interlanguage, as it used to be called (!!). This, it seems t me, is the sort of idealised state that at least Dogme proponents would like us to believe exist at all times, perhaps with a little shaking and stirring, in their classsrooms, and I’ve already blogged at some length explaining why I feel this is something of a myth.

However, I think it’s a mistake to see these two approaches as stark black and white dichotomies. Instead, I’d argue that speaking in the classroom actually exists much more along a spectrum, running the gamut from semi-nonsensical drills to fairly rigid controlled practice at one end to free flowing unplanned chat at the other – and that it’s actually the middle area that should be of most interest to teachers. In this interzone lie the kind of everyday conversations around relatively generic themes, some more interactional, some more functional, that are to a degree predictable and yet which also always have space for twists and adaptation. In the same way as good musicians learn the songs of others first, before working out how to write with their own voice, so too many learners who acquire language outside of the classroom develop a repertoire of a limited number of conversations, often based around recurring question prompts, and build on their fluency from there. In a sense, this is an inversion of the aforementioned Headway / English File model, where you learn the grammar first and then hope conversational competence will somehow emerge; here, you learn the conversation first – albeit WITH the grammar and lexis necessary to allow it to run smoothly – and then slowly watch grammatical accuracy emerge as you broaden your range.

Note that this does not mean completely doing away with the occasional more artificial drill using only one structure in isolation (especially at very low levels) – and nor does it mean stamping on any more naturally emerging conversations that may occur either. What it does mean, though, is that a major change of mindset is needed on the part of many teachers in order to see the presentation and practice of certain kinds of conversation as being one of the most crucial parts of a General English teacher’s job.

So, if you accept this, the next question is really what kinds of conversations should we be encouraging our students to get better at having. The Common European Framework provides a useful sounding board for any ideas about this that we may have, and has the added benefit of offering some kind of common frames of reference through which we can all understand level, and within which we can place our students. Through its can-do statements, it also covertly subverts the traditional notion of grammar in and of itself being the driving force behind a syllabus. The way competence is defined within the CEFR is (predominantly) conversation driven. The statements are NOT ‘I  CAN . . . do exercises manipulating the present perfect simple’ but rather, for instance, ‘I CAN . . . talk about travel experiences’. A subtle shift, perhaps, but one that, as we shall see, has serious implications.

One problem with the CEFR is the fact that the descriptors for each level describe what students should already be able to do in order to be placed at said level, which means that the things that students are supposed to be able to do at one level should actually play a significant role in determining tasks and input at the level below. Let’s consider what used to be universally known as Intermediate, but which is now slowly being re-branded as B1. Here’s a list of the competencies explicitly expected for students at the level above:


The student can . . .

  • take an active part in discussions on a wide range of subjects related to their interests
  • explain their viewpoint on a topical issue, giving the advantages and disadvantages of various positions
  • construct a chain of reasoned argument
  • describe experiences, events, hopes, dreams and ambitions
  • narrate a story
  • relate the plot of a book / film and describe their reactions to it
  • deal well with situations likely to arise while travelling
  • communicate well on matters pertinent to everyday life (family, friends, hobbies, work, travel, current events, etc.)
  • explain problems – and describe why they are problems
  • describe symptoms to a doctor
  • summarise and give opinions on talks, discussions, documentaries, articles and short stories
  • describe how to do something, giving detailed instructions
  • highlight the personal significance of events and experiences
  • convey degrees of emotion
  • speculate about causes, consequences and hypothetical situations
  • use stock phrases to gain time and keep their turn, while formulating what to say
  • give announcements on most general topics with a degree of clarity, fluency and spontaneity which cause no strain or inconvenience to the listener
  • give a clear, prepared presentation in support of – or against – a particular notion
  • take and give follow up questions with a degree of fluency and spontaneity
  • correct slips and errors if they become conscious of them
  • use circumlocution and paraphrase to cover gaps in vocabulary and structure
  • invite others to join in, say what they think, etc.
  • take initiatives in an interview, expand and develop ideas with little help from the interviewer
  • intervene appropriately in discussion, using a range of stock phrases
  • can ask follow up questions to check understanding
  • speak with clear, natural pronunciation and intonation

Several interesting points emerge from the above: the centrality of stock phrases, the fixed, the general; the importance of the personal; the focus on the negative – and the acceptance of the fact that there’s much more to say about problems than about their absence; the need to think about more than just grammar and lexis, and to take on board the flow of conversation, the way we add follow-up questions, the way we intervene, manage discourse, and so on. However, what also emerges is a slight haze and fog surrounding content. Some of the above seems to suggest a focus on explicit kinds of conversations / exchanges (describing symptoms to a doctor, say, or dealing with situations that may arise while travelling), whilst much else is bitty, incidental, embedded.

In content terms, what this means is some of the above will need to be covered within the broader framework of a focus on commonly recurrent conversational types, so, for instance, whilst helping students to be better able to narrate the plot of a film or book and to give their reactions to it, you may also want to focus on some follow-up questions, teach a few stock phrases and do some pronunciation work.

HOW this may pan within one particular class, or across classes and levels, is obviously the next question to address – but one that, given the unruly length this post has already attained, will have to wait until the next post!

6 responses

  1. Anthony Gaughan | Reply

    Thanks for such a thoughtful and provoking post, Hugh. Just a quick disagreement before going back to read it again and really get my head round it: you suggest that what is called emergent language these days is what used to be called interlanguage. I think you are conflating two distinct but related concepts here.

    Much as I hate to bring up Chomsky, I think the relationship between interlanguage and emergent language is analogous to that between Competence and Performance.

    In Chomskyan terms, Competence was the underlying system of rules which govern language behaviour, whereas Performance was merely (sic) the surface evidence of this Competence. For Chomsky, performance was corrupt and uninteresting; Competence was what was really interesting.

    Analogously, Interlanguageas a concept – at least, as I understand it – refers to the mental models of a language and its rules which govern the language behaviour of a language learner. Emergent language, then, would be the evidence of this cognitive construct: in other words, the stuff they say in language performance (there’s that word again.)

    WHile linguists might be more theoretically interested in the underlying mental model (i.e. the interlanguage), it is the day-to-day, actual realisations of these models with which (I would suggest) teachers have to concern themselves – and this is precisely why you are right to point out how pragmatic and performance-based the CEFR is.

    So there are two points perhaps worth making here:

    1) While Chomsky may have dismissed performance and performance data as a serious area for linguistic study, applied linguists and teachers never have, and so focus on emergent language is pedagogically valid (not that I am suggesting you question this, by the way…)

    2) Dogme may have (mis)appropriated or (needlessly) coined terms in its time, but its use of emergent language is principled and clearly distinct from that of interlanguage.

    I’d have had no argument if you’d called Dogme out for using the term emergent language instead of what we really used to call it: “stuff my students say that tells me they might be learning something but haven’t quite got yet”

    But then, emergent language is – in comparison to that – actually easier to say 😉

    Having got all that Chomsky off me chest, thanks again for a thoroughly enjoyable and well-considered post.


    1. Hi Anthony –
      Thanks for taking the time to read.
      I am aware of the fact that other blogs are available and thus am grateful to you for choosing to spend at least some of your blog-browsing time here! 🙂

      Anyway, joking aside, thanks for being here and for the perceptive and thoughtful feedback.
      Even if you did dirty my doors with the C-word!

      That said, I do suspect you’re right to pick me up on a flippant (and perhaps slightly lazy) use of language above (and I do, naturally, get the Chomsky analogy).
      As far as interlanguage and emergent language goes, it does seem to vary depending who you trust, mind.
      And I’m sadly not well read enough to know who first coined either term, so can’t refer to original sources.

      The Wikipedia definition of interlanguage is that it “is an emerging linguistic system that has been developed by a learner of a second language (or L2) who has not become fully proficient yet but is approximating the target language: preserving some features of their first language (or L1), or overgeneralizing target language rules in speaking or writing the target language and creating innovations”, which doesn’t clear things up that much, using as it does the concept of emergence. In general, I guess interlanguage seems to mostly be used to refer to the student’s own developing sense of how the language works as a whole system – and to many commentators (including, I noticed with interest, Scott in his published A-Z of ELT Terms) this seems to mean their own inner sense of grammatical structures / rules. Quite why it only has to refer to grammar is beyond me, but there you go.

      What emergent language actually means, though, seems slightly more problematic to me.
      If you take interlanguage to mean what the definition above has it to mean, and then see emergent language as “evidence of this cognitive construct: in other words, the stuff they say in language performance” then it’s hard to see how it differs much from “students making mistakes with grammar they’ve already studied”. In this sense, it’s hard to see what is actually ’emerging’ – certainly not the grammar they’ve studied, or else they’d get it right. Maybe what’s meant is that some slight aspects of the forms / meanings studied have been taken on board and are being misused, and that it’s, say, the present perfect continuous that’s emergent when a student says I been live here three months now.

      Personally, rather than see emergent language solely as what we used to clumsily call “stuff my students say that tells me they might be learning something but haven’t quite got yet”, I’d rather we saw it as things that emerge in the class as opportunities for teaching new language. In other words, what’s emergent is not so much grammar, but rather opportunities for teaching! This way round, anything that we hear students try to say, but not say particularly brilliantly, or not say as well as the teacher might (whether this be for grammatical reasons, lexical ones, or – as is most usual – a combination of both!) is emergent and thus available to be focused on and reformulated.

      Obviously, this is something I’m all for, and it’s something that plays a central role in my teaching.
      It’s just that I never understood why the Dogme hardcore see this as the ONLY way that language might ever be learned!!!!!!

      I’ll be writing more later on in this series about how using a coursebook well has to include a sense of being able to deal with emergent language in the sense I’ve defined it above, anyway.

  2. Anthony Gaughan | Reply

    What it does mean, though, is that a major change of mindset is needed on the part of many teachers in order to see the presentation and practice of certain kinds of conversation as being one of the most crucial parts of a General English teacher’s job.

    I think you are dead right here, Hugh: given the hegemony of grammar (yes, I do believe that this is a classroom reality to a great extent, fuelled by, but not the responsibility of, many coursebooks), the range of speech events that language learners may be exposed to in the course of a term can be remarkably low. Beginning teachers are often pre-occupied with “learning to teach grammar” and often cannot even see that conversation, or talk types, can vary significantly, and that the key to strong performance is often lexis, not grammar, and listening skill.

    Fancy having a chat sometime about what an initial teacher training course with more of this at its heart would look like?

    1. This was partly what I was getting at in my earlier comment about the dangers of seeing emergent language only in terms of grammar errors.
      I know from a lot of the observations I do that for many teachers the easiest kinds of things to pick up on while students are talking and to work with on the board are (often very basic) grammatical things. I think this stems from the fact that coursebooks do, as you say, still kowtow to a now-outdated model of language, which is wrong on so many levels.
      Of course, many trainers know it’s wrong and know they should be framing things different, but simply haven’t got round to updating their courses due to time pressures and perhaps also due to concerns about if not grammar driving the car, then what? Hence my belief in the power of coursebooks as (slow!) agents of change!
      Our new teacher training course at Westminster aims to get teachers to think beyond / outside that evil box and to train them to see material simply in terms of language that’s available to be taught and conversations that are available to be had, and to teach accordingly.
      Always happy to chat about possible other models, of course, though, yeah.

  3. […] A Dogme approach to coursebooks part one: Driven by conversation …Jul 3, 2012 … A Dogme approach to coursebooks part one: Driven by conversation 1 …. The Common European Framework provides a useful sounding … […]

  4. […] Now the series of posts I want to move on to next may well come as a bit of a surprise to many of you out there, given the fact that I devoted a significant amount of my early energies on this blog…  […]

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